96: {Interview} Emotions and Money: A Deep Dive with Erika Wasserman, CFT-I

Does money trigger all kinds of emotions for you? Whether it's your personal finances or business finances the reality is that it exists and money is part of our every day lives. So let's talk about the money honey!!

Today, I sit down with Certified Financial Therapist, Erika Wasserman CFT-I. In this conversation, Erika shares her journey from a corporate career to becoming a certified financial therapist. She discusses the importance of understanding one's relationship with money, the emotional aspects tied to financial decisions, and the necessity of open communication about finances in relationships. Erika emphasizes the need for financial acumen for everyone and provides insights on how to navigate money conversations, especially in couples. The discussion highlights the transformative moments in financial therapy and the importance of storytelling to foster understanding around financial values.

takeaways

• Erika's journey reflects the ups and downs of life.
• Financial therapy addresses emotional aspects of money.
• Open communication about finances is crucial in relationships.
• Understanding financial values can prevent conflicts.
• Everyone has a relationship with money that needs nurturing.
• Financial education should start early in life.
• Storytelling can help ease money conversations.
• Couples often have different financial backgrounds and values.
• It's important to be patient in finding your purpose.
• Aha moments in therapy can lead to significant breakthroughs.

Erika Wasserman is CEO of Your Financial Therapist, which she founded in 2019. As a Certified Financial Therapist CFT-I™, a sought-after certification held by only 70 people in the world, she combines her education in finance and international economics with her passion for helping others, empowering individuals, couples, and companies to reshape the way they think about money.

Erika is the creator of Let’s Talk Finances Financial Wellness Conversation Cards which allows people to explore the topic of money with 50 thought provoking questions. Erika earned a Bachelor of Business Administration (BBA) degree from the University of Florida, as well as a graduate Certificate in Financial Therapy from Kansas State

Transcript

Caroline (00:01.185)
Welcome, Erica.

Erika Wasserman (00:03.179)
Hey, I'm so happy to be here with you.

Caroline (00:06.423)
So we met on LinkedIn and met previous this podcast recording and I absolutely love the work that you're doing. So tell me about where you are now and how did you get there?

Erika Wasserman (00:17.081)
Well, that's a roller coaster ride. I hope you like roller coasters. I like, you know, most people in life, actually I've never met somebody that's just like a flat straight line. Have you? No. So I have my own roller coaster of life, which has ended me to be a financial therapist, a certified financial therapist. And, but it didn't start there. started in my childhood where I was just good at math. And I was, I don't know. Yeah, I guess a little dorky on it, right? I liked math. My dad.

Caroline (00:27.789)
No.

Erika Wasserman (00:46.745)
was the math person. So we bonded over it. And I remember like driving to the grocery store, my dad would be like, if there's two cans of soup and they're on sale for 99 cents, how much is one can? Like talking about math and numbers was just always part of our dialogue. And as I got older, it continued, which was really helpful because after I got a degree in finance from University of Florida, I then went into consulting, but you know, moved in with the boyfriend in New York City.

Got married, moved overseas and lived in Asia for three years, had three children, got divorced. You feel in that roller coaster ride, right? We were going up and down and left and right. And left corporate America, left the marriage. I three kids under the age of four. And yeah, -huh. Yeah, that was it on the roller coaster ride. And I had to readjust my life.

Caroline (01:25.395)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Erika Wasserman (01:39.609)
And I did that by working with entrepreneurs. And in 2019, 2017, my dad passed away, 2019, I learned about financial therapy. And that's when the aha moment went off for me of like, wait, I can take this skill that I've been developing since I was a kid talking about money and help others. And so that's, that was a very short version of the roller coaster ride of where I ended up today. And, but I believe you, end up where you're supposed to be.

Caroline (02:07.021)
I love that you talked about your dad talking about numbers with you because I think that's such an important topic that can get started at an early age. And it sounds like you've translated that into your own household as a mom now of three. And I'm sure you're having a lot of similar conversations.

Erika Wasserman (02:26.107)
yeah, have three teenage daughters right now. so the conversations around money is everywhere and every day. And I try to pass that on from little things like, hey, I want to go to Starbucks or Chipotle after school to like, okay, let's discuss this. We have a budget for the month. It changes often, right? I'm trying to figure out which theory sticks with them, but they're aware that it's not unlimited funds.

Unlike when my kids were little, my youngest was like, we're checking out the grocery store and you you just tap nowadays. So kids don't even see, touch, touch money. And so she's like, how much is on that thing? Everything's free around here. You just tap it and go. And it's like, it's hard to explain the concept of those two cans of soup that cost 99 cents when you're not seeing the dollar bill being pulled out to pay for it. And, and so we work on various ways within our house. And I work with individuals and couples on how to teach kids.

family members, partners, how to have a relationship with money and express your values because we all have them different.

Caroline (03:27.555)
That's so important because that's one of the top reasons people get divorced is communication, money, and then there's a lot of other fill -in -the -blank things. But those are two big elephants in the room. Okay, so backing up, tell me what exactly is a financial therapist?

Erika Wasserman (03:43.353)
Yes, I get that question a lot. And again, my kids can answer it for me now, which is great, because we hear it. Most people have never heard of us, which is sad in some ways because it's so needed, but there's less than 100 certified financial therapists in the country. What is it? Your financial advisor, your accountant, estate planners, right? All needed in your financial world, but they're dealing with the dollars and cents.

Financial therapist deals with all the other senses, know, the sleepless nights, those irritable relationships. How do you feel when the dinner bill arrives? Are you the first to grab it? Does the hand get really short? You know, does it depends who you're sitting with? That's where I work on is your relationship with money. How do you feel and how do you set values, but also boundaries with other family members? And how do you agree on topics such as like,

supporting aging parents or back to kids? How much are we going to afford to not afford them in life?

Caroline (04:44.205)
So what prompted you to take this direction? Okay, you had this big fancy corporate career. had a fancy apartment life in New York City and then abroad. And then everything that you're doing now is amazing as well. But I mean, how did you transition and what made you transition from this fancy corporate path to entrepreneurship and pursuing a certification in financial therapy?

Erika Wasserman (05:11.043)
Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna take you back a little bit. Remember the divorce ride? Remember the roller coaster ride when I was getting divorced? And three kids under the age of four, corporate career, trying to figure life out, and the rug got pulled out from under me. Thankfully, somebody turned me on to meditation, and actually one of my cousins, and it really saved me. It saved me in a time where there was so much uncertainty happening. So in my personal practice,

Everybody's meditation looks differently. For me, it asks three questions. Who am I? What do I want? And what's my Dharma? What's my purpose? And so who I am and what do I want? I got, right? And sometimes it changed by day. I just want to get through the day. I want to X, Y, Z. My purpose took me a little while, but I also knew that it was to take the higher road, to help others take the higher road during...

tough challenges because I was fortunate enough to be able to do that in our divorce. We got divorced in three months. We're still relatively amicable. Other life shifts have happened and I was always able to take the upper road. Part of that was because I had control over my finances, which gave me opportunities and options also. So it took me 10 years, almost a decade, to get from that moment laying on the floor doing my meditation to finding financial therapy.

And I remember again, when I started the practice, somebody saying to me, your Dharma is not going to come right away. You know, it's just, it will show up when it's ready. And so when financial therapy, somebody mentioned it, the light bulb went off and I was like, that's it. That is that moment.

Caroline (06:50.455)
I love that and everybody should find their Dharma. Finding your purpose is literally everything. It's been, I mean, it's taken me until my late 30s to find mine. And so if you're listening to this and you haven't found it yet, it's never too late.

Erika Wasserman (07:03.459)
But also it takes time. Like I had, I, what I set out my intention and then till it really came full circle, it was a decade later. So be patient with it. It will show up.

Caroline (07:16.867)
So you have a signature line on your LinkedIn profile that reads, when you think about money, does it make you feel safe, loved, secure, nervous, anxious, insignificant? Perhaps it's a combination of emotions. Can you unpack that line further? And let's talk about some of the emotions that money triggers.

Erika Wasserman (07:39.609)
Let's go back to the dinner table. You go out to dinner, right? And it's different with different people. So the same bill might show up for dinner, but if you're out to dinner, let's say with your parents and your parents buy the bill, you already paid the dinner, it feels good to some, right? And if you're expected to pick up the dinner,

It might not feel as good, or you might be anxious if you don't have enough in your checking account to cover it, but you've always been the one that pays the bill moving forward. Now you're in a group setting and all of a sudden, actually, I was just listening to Call Her Daddy podcast, Katy Perry was on, and she was talking about before she made it big, she wanted to be sitting at the dinner table and ordered the side salad and water. And then somebody at the table said, well, I just spent the bill, know, evil me.

She went to the bathroom crying, handshaking, handing the debit card over, knowing that that was a lot of money for her. So sitting at a table, we're just talking about the dinner table. We're not even talking about rent, mortgage, grocery bills, salary coming in. This is just the dinner bill can stir up a lot of emotions for people sitting at the same table.

Caroline (09:04.695)
Yeah, I think there's so many expectations and stuff that people don't talk about having to do with money. And so that leads me to my next question of why does every single person need to have sharp financial acumen for themselves?

Erika Wasserman (09:22.103)
Nobody's asked me that question that way. And I love that because at the end of the day, everybody's going to have a relationship with money. It's going to be with you to the day you die. No, no, no. It's actually going be with you to the day after you die because of your estate planning and everything else. And if you don't do estate planning, guess what? It's still going to haunt the people around you. So if you don't have a relationship with money and understanding and acumen of finances,

You're at a detriment. You're hurting yourself and you're hurting others around you. So no matter what stage you're out in life, it's like picking up a new hobby, you know, start small, start understanding. Just for some, just log into your bank account and look at it. Set a calendar reminder on Fridays at noon. You know, you just go in and look at your accounts and just sit there for a couple of minutes with it. Get comfortable.

If you've never sat with your accountant before, maybe your partner has, or you've been avoiding sitting there, just get yourself in the room. The year after, you might be able to ask another question. The year after that, you might throw your shoulders back a little bit because you have to get comfortable with it, just like you would if you learning to swim and got into the pool the first time. The same is with finances, and we do a crap job of teaching people about money from early childhood all the way to running your business. There is not a lot out there.

to help you unless you help yourself.

Caroline (10:52.407)
That's so true. My very favorite class I took in college was personal finance and I had to learn about these boring things like 401ks and having to have an emergency fund in case I blew a tire or stuff like that. And I was in my early 20s when I actually was having those conversations and learning about that in a classroom setting. And that to me is wild.

Erika Wasserman (11:16.121)
It's wild. Luckily, my daughters and I have, I said three teenage daughters, so my daughter in high school now there's a personal finance class and they're gonna teach her how to file taxes this year. I mean, I'm a grown adult. I've never filed my own taxes. I don't know how, right? So the fact that they're teaching skills younger, because we have to start talking about it. Just like you're talking about the tire, had a nail in my tire the other day, went to the tire dealership. It was a nail in the tire. And the guy, of course,

I'm a woman, I hate to say it. I walk out and the guy's like, you need four new tires. And he's like, well, let me calculate how much it is. Roughly it was gonna be $1 ,000. And I look at him like, ooh, I wasn't ready for $1 ,000 for new tires. He goes, don't worry, we have a credit card here. I mean, it was right ready to go, but it comes with free tire rotations for the long term of the credit card. Thankfully.

I had practice and advice to know, go ask somebody else if I need tires. And I drove down the street and the guy was like, $30 patch. These tires have 10 ,000 miles left on it. And I did not buy four new tires and put myself in a thousand dollars of credit card debt with a car that I didn't need.

Caroline (12:31.991)
And that's crazy and spending money is spending money on tires is the worst. So you did the right thing by getting a second opinion. Okay, so let's talk about the emotions having to do with money. Let's say someone's listening to this podcast and thinks money is ick or doesn't like talking about it, feels embarrassed about it. Does it like to bring it out with their spouse or if they're making lots of money, they feel embarrassed by that or ashamed or don't want to

sound like they're bragging when they're on their girlfriends or their family. I know I just went into a lot of touchy subjects, but how do we deal or change the emotions that we have around money?

Erika Wasserman (13:13.849)
Okay, so you're not alone. A recent survey, 2000 people, Americans, 81 % were taught not to talk about money, but didn't know why. So here we have a topic that is so important, because as you said earlier, source of divorce, infidelity and money, source of conflict of families, inheritances, all this, right, you have this powerful thing, which money is a thing.

that impacts so many relationships yet we're told not to talk about it. And we haven't seen other people doing it well. And so therefore we don't try it because, or if we try it, we stumble, we make a mistake, we don't want to touch it again. So what I encourage people to do is storytelling. You know, and I'll give an example, if you're out on a date with a new partner, you're out to dinner with friends, you know, you could share a story, something about like, I could never order off the right side of the menu growing up. You know, that was saved for birthdays and holidays.

You know, it was like an appetizer, the kids meal, whatever, whatever it was, or, know, we're a water only family. And now you're sharing some insight about your financial values and background without saying, you know, you're not ordering the $30 or $50 steak. Are you? You know, cause that's not acceptable. It's a, it's a, you start storytelling and sharing, you then actually open up and then the other person starts sharing. Sorry.

The other person starts sharing as well. The one thing I got asked the most is I don't even know how to start the conversation though, which led me to create, let's talk finances cards. So these are questions and prompts to help get those conversations going with your partner. That's the couples edition. And the divorce edition is coming out October 1st, which is after you've gotten divorced, how do you have the conversation with yourself? Because we've talked about is

Having a relationship with money is constantly evolving and changing as our lives are changing on that roller coaster ride. So it's important to keep having those conversations with the people around you, but most importantly with yourself.

Caroline (15:24.557)
So I would love your opinion here. My close friends are female entrepreneurs. I spend a lot of time with female entrepreneurs, but I also have friends that are not entrepreneurs that maybe work in corporate or maybe don't work at all or.

Is it okay to talk about money? Because when I'm around my female entrepreneur friends, they're like, I launched this or I'm doing this or I this program. I'm like, great, how much are you charging for that? And I'm not comparing myself. I'm just generally interested.

Erika Wasserman (15:54.553)
Absolutely. But see, that's how we learn. That's how we learn. And I know it's helped me in my business, especially when I was starting off and I'm like, hey, and I even went out to, I won't even say competitors, but people in the same industry to say, what's the rate are you charging? How is that sitting with people? And honestly, I was on the top end and I was okay with that. And then they were like, I can bump my rates up, right? We empower each other and we learn and we can say, hey, that worked for me, but that didn't.

And it's the same way we learn again back to a hobby. If you're looking to exercise, you start asking people, you take a class, you join a gym, you get an accountability circle going, right? It's the same thing with money. We need to start talking and learning from one another. Another example, I'm looking at putting a new roof on. I don't think I'm going to do it because I've asked enough questions. I went out, got six bids, but by the way, along the way, kept asking my friends who did it, right?

How much was it? What did you ask for? I don't know all these questions. It's not a field. I'm an expert in. So use your resources. Now maybe don't go to the town gossip to start asking questions. Start with your inner circle. And as you build confidence, you can expand out.

Caroline (17:09.933)
Would you say that has to do with self -awareness too, because like when I'm around a few more entrepreneurs, we can talk about whatever, like there's no boundaries or limits. And a lot of it does have to do with money because that's how we're supporting ourselves and, you know, putting groceries on our table and all the things. But then when you're around other groups of friends, let's say maybe aren't as close or family members, would you say just kind of use discernment there or kind of what would you say as far as advice?

Erika Wasserman (17:36.535)
It goes both ways, right? Especially with people you're not as close with, you want your best foot forward, right? You wanna look successful, act successful, be successful. So know your settings, but also if somebody's around you, be a little vulnerable. And how do you be vulnerable? Be like, I failed at that. That just wasn't as successful as I thought it was gonna be. And I learned a lot from it. And again, they're gonna now open up to be like, me too.

You know, we've all made mistakes with money. We all will continue to make mistakes with money. And the only way you can learn is by evaluating it, learning from it, and talking to other resources to figure out how to do it better.

Caroline (18:19.597)
So Erica, you work with both individuals and couples. What is your top advice for couples when navigating through money issues and what money issues do you see come up the most often?

Erika Wasserman (18:33.601)
The issues that come up the most often is spending. know, one's a spender, one's a saver. That's what I see the most. I just want to take a step back for a minute. We get our financial views from three major areas. The first one's our background. How you grew up talking about money. I shared the cans of soup, right? Like for me, talking about money was normal. Here's an interesting fact. As soon as we went shopping, we hid the shopping bags to my dad left for work and we'd sneak them in as kids.

My dad paid the credit card bill. Like it just didn't make sense now as an adult, but that was my background. As an adult, I would probably repeat the same patterns. And so then you add in religion. Money is greed, doesn't buy you happiness. You give a certain percent to charity. And then you have the sometimes men are the ultimate decision makers. So people have gone from the family where the dad earns money, know, dad manages the money to husband manages the money and then death, divorce.

other circumstances, they're now looking to do it on their own. And the third is experiences. So being an entrepreneur, you had great experiences doing flyers or attending an event. You're gonna do it again. You had a bad experience, don't ever talk to me about direct marketing, right? No matter what the return is. So now when you're with a couple, business partner, I work with business partners and romantic partners, you have two different views coming together without spending the time talking about it.

On average, people say, love you after five months. What do you think it is until they share their financial information? Maybe debt, credit score, salary.

Caroline (20:13.462)
One year.

Erika Wasserman (20:15.459)
So it averages nine months. When I ask these people questions, when I ask this question to large groups, it varies from like the first date to never. And so when you're partnering with somebody, you're in love with them, your endorphins are going, the honeymoon phase is there, but you don't know what their credit score is, which as you get to older adults, impacts so many other things, or if bankruptcy is normal in their family or having credit card debt. Take the time to understand their financial values.

earlier on, or if not, pause now. And not just understand the surface level what it is, but ask the why. And that's why the conversation cards are helpful, because they're going to ask questions like, what's your favorite bill to pay? Or what have I bought that's over under a hundred dollars that bothers you? And a couple I was working with, the husband was like, plants, you buy plants. I don't understand why you're constantly buying plants. And she was like, I lived in New York city. I never had a backyard before.

So for me, like this is my splurge, this is like I've made it and I just want to buy all the plants in the world. It was a waste of money for him who grew up in the country. So sometimes understanding where the spending is coming from the root will help you also move from resentment to respect. And that's what you want in both your business and in your personal relationships.

Caroline (21:38.157)
Those little things, even that example of the plants that you just gave, add bricks to a wall in a marriage and can that wall can crumble a marriage. And so I think it starts even in the very beginning from the first date. I mean, who's paying for dinner?

Erika Wasserman (21:56.121)
Who's paying for dinner, right? First vacation together. Like, do you remember that before you were married? Like, the airfare, the hotel, the dinner, like, all of that. And if you don't have those conversations ahead of time, I was actually just presenting to a group and we were talking about group vacations. And I said, have uncomfortable conversations upfront so that way you're not ruining your vacation like,

He ordered another drink, the bottle service. We're doing the bottle service, right? Like if you have clear expectations upfront, you're able to enjoy those moments a little bit better. So get uncomfortable so then you can be comfortable.

Caroline (22:33.143)
love that advice. So what is lighting up some of the clients you're working with right now?

Erika Wasserman (22:37.913)
I'm sorry, I said a question again.

Caroline (22:39.489)
What is lighting you up with some of the clients that you're working with right now?

Erika Wasserman (22:44.115)
I love those aha moments that I get with clients, you back to like the plant conversation. By the way, that couple got engaged while we were working together. So it was two different financial values. Both, this is the second marriage, first marriage, he and his wife were great. They had similar values. They always had money in the account. They were good. She and her husband, the first husband was like a mother son.

and he always overspent and she couldn't trust him and there was a lot of resentment and insecurity in their finances. So now she was partnering with somebody new, but came with the financial trauma. And so we worked through her financial trauma along with his understanding of how she got there and that they were both were building something new. So like that totally lit me up and that just happened recently. So that was amazing.

Caroline (23:34.701)
I love that, that's a great story. So as we wrap up, how can our listeners find you?

Erika Wasserman (23:39.533)
Yeah, absolutely. Come find me at yourfinancialtherapist .com is my website. If you go to the contact page, that's where you can work directly with me in either three sessions or six sessions, how I do packages. The other thing is hop on Amazon. Let's talk finances. So the couples edition or like I said, the divorce edition is just coming out. If you have a friend that's just going through a divorce or is recently divorced, newly married or couples and you grab one.

Grab a couple cards and go for a walk, a drive, sometimes sitting side by side is a great way to have some of these uncomfortable conversations.

Caroline (24:16.077)
Thanks, Erica.

Erika Wasserman (24:17.507)
Thank you.