42: {Interview} Negotiating Your Next Job Offer with Keri-Lynne Shaw

Are you interested in learning how to negotiate your next salary increase? That's a no brainer! If you are in process of making a job change, chances are you are leaving money on the table. Learning now to negotiate  more money, more benefits and more time off is literally a game changer.

In today's episode I have Keri-Lynne Shaw with me. Keri-Lynne is a fractional Chief People Officer and Founder of her company The Salary Bump. She partners and advises companies on topics like Strategic Hiring, Growth Impact and Tailoring Teams for ultimate success!

The Salary Bump is her newest program offering intensive 1:1 coaching and digital courses to help YOU learn all of the negotiation tactics. With less than 15% of candidates negotiating their offers, she recognized a critical need for empowerment.  Leveraging her experience, Keri-Lynne has made it her mission to equip job seekers with the knowledge and tactics they need to not just succeed, but to excel to your fullest potential! 

Click HERE for more on The Salary Bump!

Follow- Keri-Lynne Shaw on LinkedIn HERE

This is an episode you do not want to miss!

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Transcript

Caroline (00:01.353)
Welcome to Feminine Founder, where we talk all things recruiting, hiring, business, and entrepreneurship. I'm Caroline Finnington, your host. Today I have Carrie Lynn Shaw with me. Carrie Lynn is a chief people officer, CEO, advisor and the founder of The Salary Bop. So welcome.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (00:19.798)
Thank you, thanks for having me.

Caroline (00:23.329)
So I'd love to hear your story behind how you became a chief people officer and then on top of that launching your new course and coaching business, the Sadler Blunt.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (00:37.262)
Great, so I fell into HR by accident, spent most of my years in sales and marketing, started out selling cars to pay for college.

and fell in love with the automotive industry. I spent 20 years in automotive by total accident and just by my network. Someone said, hey, we think you'd be great in HR. I said, all right, I don't even know how to spell it, but let's go for it. Back in those days, I would say modern HR wasn't really in place, or at least at the company that I worked for.

And so I didn't, I never went to HR for anything, not even the recruiting process. So I got into HR and loved every minute of it. It was the most perfect accident. And the reason I loved it so much is because modern HR and a business partner model where you're really embedded in the business is...

where I have the most fun and given the fact that I had so many years of experience on the business side, I didn't want to give that up and I'm a bit obsessed with human behavior. And so throughout my journey in HR, I became a professional coach and learned more theory behind how do we help people unlock their potential and uncovered that really was my purpose in life.

was really right where I was supposed to be. And yeah, it's been a really great journey.

Caroline (02:04.121)
So what is the best way to go about asking for a salary increase when you are in the process of job searching?

Keri-Lynne Shaw (02:14.434)
So I'll tell you a little bit about maybe why I launched the salary bump before we go into answering that question. Because many of my years I spent.

growing and learning and that was always a big value for me. And I used to always say money is not my number one driver. And I would say that in front of a job offer, which was the most ridiculous thing now looking back. And when I got into HR, I soon realized in looking at the discrepancies and salaries and the benchmarking, how grossly underpaid I was and how much money I had left on the table. So it sort of brought together

of my years in HR and seeing such low percentages of people that negotiated at all and then realizing that I can have growth and learning in my development and have the money.

So what I really have attempted to do with the salary bump is to give back and to give people the tools. A little peek behind the HR curtain and what the interviewer or what the job offer, the person on the other end is actually thinking. And just a little secret, they all expect you to negotiate. And when you don't, it's actually alarming. And in my experience, that number is around 15% of people that negotiate.

different statistics and different studies show different amounts, but it's a very, very low number. That number is even lower for women and of course there are a couple of reasons behind why that is, which we can talk about a little bit later, but ask me your question again and then I will weave that into the salary bump.

Caroline (04:01.549)
So why is it so important to negotiate your salary rather than just accepting what's offered?

Keri-Lynne Shaw (04:08.662)
Well, first of all, we all know there's a massive gender pay gap. And there's a significant statistic that is actually gender neutral, which is if you don't negotiate, you are leaving between $1 and $1.5 million on the table over your career because of the compoundable.

interest in the compoundable nature to it. So by not negotiating, you are holding yourself back from financial goals, from greater retirement, from the vacation home you wanted, from the life of travel or one or two trips a year that you want to take. There are

Money doesn't have to be your only driver, but there is a significant reason. We all have financial goals So even if you know money isn't your number one And I think the reason a lot of people don't negotiate is that they're very first of all they're afraid They're afraid that they might pull the offer from them

Some people have a poor association to money and have guilt around asking for it, and other people just don't know how. So it could be a combination of those things, but it's extremely important to ask. And also it shows your leadership. So if you're coming into a new company and they make you an offer and you negotiate for what you believe you're worth, it sets the tone for how

Keri-Lynne Shaw (05:38.704)
From my perspective, I was always really impressed when people did so.

Caroline (05:44.289)
In my 15 years of recruitment, I've only had one company say no when a candidate has asked for an increase. And I've placed at this point hundreds of thousands of people. And also that one to one point five million dollars is a staggering eye opening number to leave on the table. I mean, that's a game changer.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (06:09.93)
Yeah, and obviously depending on your level, it could be more, right? It is, it's significant. And so to your point, if only one company said no on the negotiation, how many companies that you have done this with have pulled an offer?

Caroline (06:31.434)
Lesson five.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (06:33.994)
of hundreds and thousands. And I do think that's a real fear for people, but at the end of the day, I'm such a believer in right place, right time. Everything happens for a reason. It wasn't your company. If that were to happen, that is a very rare occurrence. It's just not, it wasn't your place anyway, you know?

Caroline (06:55.533)
So what are additional things that candidates can ask for when they're negotiating their new offer in addition to cash?

Keri-Lynne Shaw (07:05.278)
Yeah, so this is one of my favorites because again, if people are already nervous to ask for more salary, asking for other ancillary benefits, it's a rare occurrence. And a lot of people don't realize all the different levers that you have to pull. So let's talk about a few of them. I'm sure you've got more to add to my list, but the basic ones are salary, bonus, and potentially equity depending on your level, depending on the size of the company. Is it a startup?

Those are the obvious ones. The not so obvious ones are things like healthcare benefits. In all of my years and the thousands of offers that I've given, not one person has ever asked to see the salary benefits, to see the cost breakdown. Now keep in mind.

you could have just received a salary bump and thrown all that away because the health care benefits are terrible compared to the company that you're at. So that's an important one that I would definitely ask for. Company car is another big one. Gas is another big one. PTO. PTO is real.

And in some cases if you're an hourly worker that's money in your pocket if you're salaried It's not but if you value time off, then that's something that's of value to you flexible work arrangements flexible work locations flexible work time One other thing that I always like to consider again, this is also a bit dependent on level but negotiate severance

as part of your package, given the environment that we're in today. Negotiating severance is a really big one. I like to look at the standard is about one month for every year served. That's a fair number. Tuition reimbursement, your personal development, there's lots of opportunities there. If you really value education and your learning, then that's something that you can also put on the table and negotiate.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (09:10.486)
The one thing to always think about is salary and bonus comes out of one bucket on the P&L and the other ancillary benefits are somewhere separate. So they're much easier to negotiate. So if they said no to your salary request, then let's get creative. Let's talk about some of the other benefits. So a no doesn't mean no. A no might be, okay, we pushed it as far as we can on the salary, but there's so many other aspects to consider.

Caroline (09:41.101)
You make a great point about the health insurance because you could be at one company making X amount of money that has a very rich and benefits health benefit plan and then switch to a smaller or maybe company that doesn't have as good of benefits. And then that 10,000 bonus, you just think that you received is a wash because you're paying out now in higher healthcare costs.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (10:04.178)
Yeah, it's interesting. I just worked with a client today, as a matter of fact, who is an automotive technician. So I work with all sorts of clients, men, women, all levels. So I just negotiated a CEO package in the multi-millions and I'm working with a technician on the other end. What was interesting about his approach was he just graduated from his master technician or world-class.

the top level you can get as a technician. And if anybody is listening in the automotive world, you know how difficult it is to find technicians because fewer and fewer people are going into a trade and keeping technicians. So the turnover rate is about 50% in dealer. Now,

Interesting for him is he's very excited about getting this certification and he really loves where he's at and loves the culture of the organization, but he wants to grow financially. So we mapped out an approach for him to go to his leadership to talk about what his growth looks like at the dealership, what his future looks like.

And that's not only in financial, it's his commitment to them, to grow with them. But financial was a piece of it. So we came up with a bunch of different approaches, a salary-based approach, we came up with a, you know, increase to his hourly rates, different levels, different incentive levels, we came up with a hybrid approach.

but we went through the ancillary benefits. He works for a car dealership. So a company car is a very logical one that really costs the dealership almost nothing, but saves him over $500 a month in the car payment he has now.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (11:50.978)
Gas, $250 a month, that saves him, and he pays $400 a month in healthcare. So we put that as part of the package, and then we also added two weeks of PTO, 10 days of PTO. And all of this will be about a $60,000 raise, but doesn't necessarily cost the dealership that. And the incentive-based approach where he can grow as his work productivity grows, it's also significant. So it's a win-win,

that's how we're setting it up.

Caroline (12:23.929)
I love that story because the Anselier items you mentioned are huge and there's such benefits. I mean, no more car payment, no more gas payment. I mean, the dealership's got the cars sitting around, so I'm sure there's something there you can drive.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (12:38.542)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's just a great example. And again, the fact is for him, he wants to feel valued.

He wants to feel appreciated. He wants to feel like this certification really means something. And, and, and really it was also about helping him figure out the homework behind it. He'd been getting calls from other dealerships, other manufacturers. Okay. So what were they paying? And that's part of your market research. When you go to your leadership, so I've done my homework. This is what the market is paying.

I don't want to go out anywhere else. I really want to stay and invest here with you. And then one other thing that we added to his conversation was to say, listen.

if you know knowing how difficult it is to find technicians, knowing how significant the turnover is, if we were to agree on whatever approach and wherever we land, I'm willing to sign something where I'll stay for a period of time as well. So that commitment is two-way. So in the end it's going to be a win-win. I can't wait to see what the results of his negotiation is going to be, but I'm certain it's going to be really positive for him.

Caroline (13:46.041)
I think one thing to keep in mind when you are going to negotiate either additional pay or benefits is the worst thing that they can say is no.

Caroline (14:01.117)
And then at that point, you can decide whether or not you want to stay and live with it or whether or not it's time to make a move.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (14:09.81)
Yeah, so this is also just super interesting in leading up to a yes or a no. I talked a little bit about doing homework and in this case of the technician he's working already there. But if you're going into a new negotiation with a new company, a couple pieces of advice that I always give my clients is you never talk in solid numbers. You only ever talk in ranges.

You always do your homework on the market value of the role. And keep in mind, the market value of the role is not the published dollar amount. The published dollar amount that you see the companies post with pay transparency laws can be a budgeted amount. I've not worked with many that would do the homework on what the market value is the role. This is what we're budgeting.

So knowing what the market is paying and knowing really where you see yourself and where you want to be going into that negotiation is super important. So I like to tell my clients if let's just use an example, they currently make $100,000 market value for the role they're going for is 125, they would be over the moon with 125. Right? So when we start talking about ranges, I always recommend.

The number that you would be happy with is the low number you should go in at your range. So if you'd be over the moon with 125 but you'd be really happy with 120, start at 120 and go to 140. And you're going to end up somewhere in the middle, but start your range. The lowest end of your range should be the number that you would accept.

You never want to undersell yourself because if you give a lower amount, that's the number that you put on the table. And if that's where they end up, you're not going to be happy. So even if they come back with a number of 115 and you say, listen, based on my years of experience, based on where I'm at and the market value of the role, I see myself at the 125 range. How does that sound for you? And you can still have that conversation even if they come back.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (16:12.022)
But I always recommend you negotiate, and I always recommend you take time after you received an offer to think it through and to really do your homework and ensure that you're coming back with a thoughtful rebuttal and to be able to have a thoughtful conversation.

Caroline (16:34.169)
Okay, that is pure gold right there, only talking in ranges. I mean, that is huge.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (16:41.182)
Yeah, you back yourself into a corner otherwise, right? You have nowhere to go.

Caroline (16:46.221)
Absolutely.

So I'd love to pivot and talk more about your new program, the salary bot.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (16:53.266)
Yeah, so I told you a little bit about why I started the salary bump. And there's two different ways that you can work with me. One is going to my website and downloading or buying access to my accelerator program. And this is a self-guided online program where you'll go through a series of videos, series of worksheets. This is for someone who really wants to do the work to make a big change in their life.

And there's a module on know your worth, so around building your confidence to be able to ask and understand sort of your relationship to money and why it's awkward and to help you break through not feeling awkward around it, not feeling guilt around money. Then there's a module on prep for the interview, which I know you do day in and day out with your clients. A lot of work on your elevator pitch.

and really how to set the stage and set your intentions going into an interview and really establishing what you want to feel during the interview, that connection that you want to make and how important that is. And then last but not least it's land the new job.

how to answer critical questions early in the process like what are your salary expectations. You have to be prepared to answer that question from the very first meeting. So a lot of really good nuggets on how to prep so a little bit like the gold I just gave you on the salary range. There's a ton more information in there, pro tips throughout and it's a it's a wonderful program that I think is going to have a huge impact on a wider population.

Another way you can work with me is one on one. So I have a really specific client that works with me one on one and that is someone who just received an offer and you have 72 hours to turn it around. You call me and we make that happen. Super hard hitting land the plane.

Keri-Lynne Shaw (18:49.002)
Then the other one is if you just are about to jump into your dream interview and you want me to help you load your lips and just fine tune your elevator pitch. And then the third one is if you want a salary bump in your current role, in your current company, because that's a very different conversation than negotiating for a new job.

Caroline (19:11.801)
Thanks, Carolyn.